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 Ukrainian Revolution

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Phoenix Quinn
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:10 pm

InsaneKaleb wrote:

Are you sure its all just propaganda? http://rt.com/news/ukraine-monuments-nazi-symbols-645/ The pictures in this article tell the story all by there self without any need for interpretation.

 Sad I'm not sure about anything.

But... things like the following do make me think the Ukrainian press might be slightly more trustworthy (though still bad) as compared to the Russian press:

Russian press freedom score: 81 (with 100 being worst)

Ukraine press freedom score: 60

 affraid 

There seems to be little doubt that there are far-right groups and individuals in Ukraine and that they have bad intentions. It equally seems very doubtful to me that they have in any meaningful sense "taken over" or conducted a "coup" in Ukraine at this point. There seeems to be no evidence that Maidan demonstrators were any means mainly characterized as "fascists" and "neo-Nazis", indeed just the opposite.

As for the pix in RT, people have pulled down or removed statues of Lenin and other reminders of Russian occupation all over Eastern Europe. It's no surprise that Ukrainians would do the same, especially once Russia starts re-occupying. In Budapest, there is even a park where such statues have been collected into a tourist attraction.

The situation in Ukraine is fluid. As I understand it, there are many forces at work, including a widespread sense of national unity that includes Russian-speaking Ukrainians which may just end up surprising Mr. Putin.

The Putin regime, on the other hand, openly admires Aleksandr Dugin's version of "National Bolshevism", which is an openly fascist movement (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin ) that is at the heart of Putin's stated goal of a "Eurasian Union". Fascist groups have been active in Russia for some time. Here's a 1995 article from the US socialist group "Solidarity" on this topic: http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/2833 From what I've heard, the type of activity described in that article has only gotten worse as Putin has consolidated his power. It seems to me the height of hypocrisy -- and extremely cynical (not to mention very clever) -- for Putin's corrupt gang of kleptomaniacs to be accusing others of fascism.

Apologies for rambling on. I am certainly not trying to defend any racists & fascists in Ukraine. But buying into the Kremlin line is not my cuppa tea either.  No 





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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:05 pm

Did you miss all the pictures of the Nazi symbols painted all over the place in those pictures? All you seemed to mention was them taking down the Soviet monuments. Which is understandable since the Soviets were not very nice to Ukraine.

Please don't think you need to apalogise for rambling, there is alot to the current situation and all info helps. How any one could ever think you would support or defend Nazism is beyond me. We are all supposed to be feeinds here so I think your safe to express your opinions without fear of being thought of in too bad of a way.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:05 am

InsaneKaleb wrote:
Did you miss all the pictures of the Nazi symbols painted all over the place in those pictures? All you seemed to mention was them taking down the Soviet monuments. Which is understandable since the Soviets were not very nice to Ukraine.

Please don't think you need to apalogise for rambling, there is alot to the current situation and all info helps. How any one could ever think you would support or defend Nazism is beyond me. We are all supposed to be feeinds here so I think your safe to express your opinions without fear of being thought of in too bad of a way.

Thanks bro, for the reality check.  Smile  Apologies if I sounded overly defensive. Not my intention. I sometimes get a little too pedantic in discussions like this.

Yeah, there's no doubt that there are nasty far-right elements in Ukraine, including in its new government.

I feel too, though, that we are also seeing what appears to be a carefully constructed line of misinformation coming from sources like RT and similar groups like the Centre for Research on Globalization which manage to spread conspiracy theories, anti-semitism and confusion between socialism and fascism whilst simultaneously over-emphasizing the role of fascist and neo-Nazi groups in various events. It strikes me as a kind of "dressed up" neo-fascism in the style of David Duke and others, with quite clever attention to media manipulation and what, for lack of a better term, I might call "meme-bending" along with good old-fashioned mis-reporting and media bias.

An example of what I mean is a video I saw on the CRG web site pointing out that a Confederate flag and a "white power" (Celtic cross) flag were visible at a session of the Ukrainian parliament, along with various national flags. What the commentary does not state is that a whole variety of non-state flags could be seen to be hung somewhat haphazardly in the upper galleries, not on the main floor, of whatever room & session were actually being filmed, and that they included an anarcho-syndicalist black-red flag (evidently quickly moved out of frame once the videographer realized it was there) and others, along with the two racist flags -- one of which was being hung while the video was being shot -- all of which suggested to me that the episode was being rather carefully staged.

I've also seen accusations that it is Russian agents in Ukraine who have carried out various actions of an overt fascist nature in Ukraine in order to stir up sentiments that might encourage Russian intervention. But I have no idea how reliable that info is either.

The rise of far-right movements in Russia and in Eastern Europe following the collapse of the Soviet Union is a disturbing trend. The 1993 book Black Hundred: The RIse of the Extreme RIght in Russia provides some interesting background. The comments on it on Amazon coming from the kind of new-far-right "intellectuals" noted above are equally interesting in the sense that studying new psycho-pathologies is interesting. Inter-related with what we are seeing of the far-right in Russia and Ukraine, which is a kind of Orthodox-flavored Franco-ism with "National Bolshevik" seasoning, is the rise of what has been characterized as far-right "mafia states" in eastern Europe, with Hungary under Orban's regime being the most extreme example so far. See for example, Hungarian Octopus: The Post-Communist Mafia State.

Hard to say what are the facts really are in this current Ukraine situation. No doubt the CIA and others are playing their part in the dis-information campaigns as well. A lot of my point of view is based on notes and comments I've gotten over the past year or so from friends, family and acquaintances who are either from Russia, do business with Russians or have traveled recently to Ukraine. All of that of course is also biased too and has a certain particular perspective, but at least it is personal and not mediated by government and spy-agency propagandists.  pirat 

A strange world we are living in, where the "successful" fascists try to "win" by pointing a finger at and attacking the more "vulgar" fascists.

And, looking at all of this from a kind of categorical level, the USA's own "successful" rightists, do much the same thing, pushing through things like the Patriot Act and wrapping themselves up in both religiosity (of a warped Protestant variety) and bizarre ideologies (like a half-baked Ayn Randism) in order to "protect the nation" (us) from even worse religio-fundamentalists than them (i.e., Wahabi and Salafist extremists, etc., who in turn, in some cases, they also support when it suits their opportunism... sigh.)





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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:43 pm

"successful" fascists try to "win" by pointing a finger at and attacking the more "vulgar" fascists - lol, what a great way to put it.

Update: The Crimea referendum has been completed and they have left Ukraine and at the same time voted to join the Russian Federation. RT says that the vote was 1.3 million for and 30k against. Of course The West is saying they don't recognize Crimea's right to self-determination and they will apply more sanctions (how sanctions are going to effect Russia is pretty laughable). Russia has or is going to ratify a bill that confirms Crimea as a part of Russia. That's all I have for now.
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PostSubject: Re   Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:31 pm

You do not get a margin larger than that, that is insane! I guess the west is saying there was election fraud? I cannot find any information regarding that though.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:49 pm

messianicnoahide wrote:
You do not get a margin larger than that, that is insane!  I guess the west is saying there was election fraud?  I cannot find any information regarding that though.

I doubt you will find solid evedince coming from the west, all they have is rhetoric. Juat like the use of chemical weapons in Syria they never showed us their evidence, they just kept saying they had it. Iraq was the exact same way.

I found this article to be pretty funny> http://rt.com/politics/russian-duma-sanctions-crimea-594/
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:08 pm

Al-Jazeera posted interviews with several people in Crimea opposed to annexation (i.e., Ukrainians and Tatars) pointing out that there is massive intimidation going on the streets against non-Russians, with members of the Night Wolves M.C., Cossacks (yes Cossacks, just like the ones who horse-whipped the Pussy Riot grrls at the Olympics) and other irregulars patrolling everywhere. They reported that most non-supporters of annexation boycotted the vote and that Tatars are setting up patrols to prevent incursions against their neighborhoods from armed Russian groups.

A 97% majority in a snap vote organized under armed occupation by irregulars is laughable. The percentage is reminiscent of fake Soviet-era elections.

Still, there is little the West can or will do. Crimea is "historically" Russian and Putin has shown a willingness to get violent (South Ossetia, Abkahzia, Transdniester, and of, course, Chechnya), so I expect this will stand. Nobody in the West will go to war over this. At least thankfully there seem to have been very few shooting incidents so far.

With whatever sanctions the US, Canada and EU come up with, hopefully some of Putin's klepto-cronies will now feel a pinch on their travel plans and in their ability to hide their booty overseas.

Finally, I thought it was particularly revealing in Putin's crowing press conference how he issued a not-so-veiled threat against anyone in Russia now daring to oppose or criticize him. Again, very reminiscent of Stalin -- any expression of dissent is, by definition, carried out by traitorous spies. Sigh.

Will perhaps be interesting to see if Ukraine now turns the tables and turns off the water and electricity in Crimea.

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PostSubject: Re   Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:34 pm

Hmmm, interesting. Thanks for the input PQ!
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:24 am

 study 

Here's an analysis of the Maidan movement from a Ukranian perspective. It is Kyiv Post article by Serhiy Kvit, who is now the Ukrainian minister of education:

The ideology of the Euromaidan revolution

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:05 pm

Since the last update on the situation in Ukraine a lot has happened.

It all started with this http://rt.com/news/ukraine-donetsk-rally-referendum-601/

and then this happened http://rt.com/news/ukraine-donetsk-rally-referendum-601/ and http://rt.com/news/rally-donetsk-slavyansk-ukraine-160

Now the new Gov't is sending in troops to bust some heads. Seems like Deja vu to me http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-violence-threats-405/ People protest against the government, government sends in troops to halt the violence and then people start dieing because the government wouldn't hear their grievances http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-violence-slavyansk-240/
and don't forget about those ever present neo-nazi's http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nationalist-call-mobilization-184/


Another thing to watch out for is the fact NATO seems to be building up troops in Eastern Europe
http://rt.com/news/nato-increase-military-europe-245/
http://rt.com/news/nato-poland-ukraine-rasmussen-609/
http://rt.com/news/latvia-nato-foreign-occupation-357/
http://rt.com/news/lavrov-ukraine-nato-convention-069/


On the Topic of Media Freedom
http://rt.com/news/osce-media-ukraine-journalists-628/
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:48 pm

Speaking of neo-nazis, there is also this:

Jews ordered to register by pro-Russian militants in Donetsk.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:51 am

Phoenix Quinn wrote:
Speaking of neo-nazis, there is also this:

Jews ordered to register by pro-Russian militants in Donetsk.

I don't trust anything Kerry says. Just like with Syria.

http://rt.com/op-edge/geneva-ukraine-deescalation-eu-420/ <this is an Op-ed


http://rt.com/news/fake-news-ukraine-russia-364/ <this is RT's official article in which the guy who supposedly signed the letter to the Jews says it is fake.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:09 pm

Laughing And I don't trust anything written in Russia Today.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:33 am

Phoenix Quinn wrote:
Laughing And I don't trust anything written in Russia Today.

But you trust the Dailymail. A news outlet whose main page on their website is nothing but celebrity gossip?

I understand that RT puts out a lot of propaganda but so does ever other news source. At least RT keeps up on real news like what is going on in Isreal, Iran, Turkey, Japan and Syria. There are big things happening in all these places, why does it seem like RT is the only one reporting on it? Especially the stuff going on in Japan(radiation leaking into the ocean everyday) and Syria(a 2year long civil war).
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue May 06, 2014 3:12 pm

From watching the American News; It's obvious that they are making it out to be something that it isn't. Now, what it is, I don't know.
I don't watch any television. But, I was at my dad's house and he was watching it. Anyways, they showed one, obsolete, Titan tank and said there was an invasion.

My great grandparents left Ukraine during the last occupation. But, I'm not sure that's what up, this time. I can't get an honest report.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Mon May 12, 2014 5:41 am

Don't mean to be beating this death here... and it certainly has nothing to do with eRepublik (& I am happy to agree to disagree with those holding a different opinion)...  But it does seem worrisome that Russian fascism seems to be getting a "free ride" in certain quarters, not only via Putin's propaganda arms, which one would expect, but amongst some sectors of European and American media as well, like the Larouchites and a few others.

I've been reading a new biography of Lu Xun, which points out that he was deeply troubled by this kind of confusion between Bismarkian "iron and blood"  authoritarianism (including one-party rule) and Stalinist-style "revolutionism" (meaning breathless r-r-r-r-revolutionary sloganeering, basically) all the way back in the 1920s in China.  Anyway. Maybe I'll write something on that theme later...


Right. So here's an in-depth analysis of the Ukrainian revolution and Russian fascism:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117692/fascism-returns-ukraine

Couple of key points it makes that seem to accord with what I have read and heard:

"..the revolution in Ukraine came from the left."

"The authoritarian right in Russia is infinitely more dangerous than the authoritarian right in Ukraine. "

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri May 16, 2014 8:57 pm

Haha. If you trust anything from Russia Today, you're crazy.

NATO, particuarly the United States, needs to step its game up before Germany and other EU countries start seriously considering the Eurasian alliance that Putin keeps advocating every time he meets them.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat May 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Eurasian Alliance - LOL

Everything old is new again - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:31 am


I'm sure some of you have already seen this in the news but Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov shot dead (BBC). Putin has personally assumed control of the "investigation"... if that doesn't sound farcical I don't know what does.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:26 pm

Nothos wrote:

I'm sure some of you have already seen this in the news but Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov shot dead (BBC). Putin has personally assumed control of the "investigation"... if that doesn't sound farcical I don't know what does.

So true

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:54 am

I am from Ukraine, I can answer any question about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:35 am

Haskuldr wrote:
I am from Ukraine, I can answer any question about it.

You can always ask for SFP access here: http://sfp-erep.forumotion.com/t310p210-introduce-yourself-access-request

No question about the revolution. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:33 pm

What are your feelings on the Russian presence in Ukraine? How have you been affected by the Russian presence?
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:38 am

Jaden A. wrote:
What are your feelings on the Russian presence in Ukraine?  How have you been affected by the Russian presence?

The Russian presence in Ukraine began with the collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It is appropriate to say that 20% of Ukrainian territory was not a part of Russia as an empire. Even with the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine is a Russian sphere of influence.

But if you mean a military presence, then it is only in the Donbas and Crimea. The enemy controls 7% of the country. The state itself is only recently beginning than to help his army, but even now, the supply of the army and the National Guard carried out in more volunteers.

At the Independence Square in Kiev, a lot of people had for the money, were and those who for the idea. It was not a revolution, it was a big robbery and the coup government in the country. Pity those who fight in the Donbass, Ukrainian soldiers are real men. The Ukrainian government is afraid that the war ended, because you know that when the soldiers return home, they wants toppled the gang power of the oligarchs and corrupt whores.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:40 am

Sorry for my bad English!
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