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 Ukrainian Revolution

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InsaneKaleb
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PostSubject: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:11 pm

What is your opinion on the current Revolution in Ukraine?

I get my news from Russia Today so I see it mostly as a US/EU controlled and organized coup d'état. I mean our politicians were there on the ground in the beginning telling the protesters to stand strong. I did however see something posted on facebook by a friend I went to school with who is from Ukraine that said it all started in Nov. when the Police cracked some skulls at a truly peaceful protest.

Now it seems that the Far-right has high-jacked the entire thing even if it was a truly domestic Revolution. The acting president is a well known Neo-nazi and his party is intimidating and threatening anyone who tries to stop them from gaining total control.

There is a vote coming up for the Crimea region that is most likely going to result in them wanting to secede from the Ukraine and possibly join Russia since the majority of people in that region are ethnically Russian. I just hope that they will be able to do what they want peacefully and without an all out civil war.
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judeconnors
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:17 pm

Ukraine, like Georgie a few years back, has the possibility of erupting into another West v East Cold War.

It's a shame that Russia and the US/EU doesn't stay out of the business of people who should be determining their own futures on their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:49 am

It's a revolution against authoritarianism. The current leader is just a putin backed statist.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:01 pm

The Russian Parliament has approved deployment of troops.
From what I have read, Russian troops have entered the Ukraine.
I can say it is never a good thing when armed combat troops of one country crosses a border into another country. People end up dying.
It will be interesting to see how the Western Euro's react to this. My guess nothing, considering the Russians supply them with a vital commodity: Natural Gas.
I'm sure the Baltic nations cannot be too thrilled at seeing the Russians mobilizing like this.
Sort of reminds me of why, how and when the Soviets went into Afghanistan in 1979
Not saying it will happen, but you do have all the factors of a major war breaking loose.
Think about August 1914 and then September 1939.

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InsaneKaleb
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:06 pm

"The Russian Parliament has approved deployment of troops.
From what I have read, Russian troops have entered the Ukraine."

I think the US/EU sending in agents to organize and supply the radicals that first started shooting at the riot police was reason enough for Russia to send in troops. Just because the US uses the CIA to do it's bidding so that it looks like we have nothing to do with it isn't any better. At least you know that Russia is involved when it does something.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:58 pm

A couple of updates that I have just read.


Canada has recalled their ambassador from Moscow.

France and Britain will be doing the same.

Ukraine is calling for a General Mobilization of armed forces, which will start 3/2/14. This one is different from the one I read last night http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26405635

UN call's for "immediate de-escalation"  This was from a CNN tweet, I  do not have link.

US Republicans:  want Congress to consider applying target sanctions against "Russian persons and entities" Cannot find link but it was a statement from Senator Corker R-Tenn

Russian Troops have taken possession Of Crimea without any active combat.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/russian-troops-take-possession-of-crimea-without-firing-a-shot

Ukrainian Navy flagship has defected to Russian side.  http://rt.com/news/ukraine-navy-flaghsip-protest-389/


Just thought I would post some of the developments, that I have seen.

I updated with some links

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Last edited by shiloh13 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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InsaneKaleb
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:51 am

If you could provide sources they would be greatly appreciated. I have been seeing all kinds of things and it is hard to know which is true without seeing it come from multiple reliable sources.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:38 pm

Here is some info about the situation from an Australian news source.



http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-troop-invasion-encircles-crimeas-capital-as-ukraine-pm-declares-the-nation-to-be-on-brink-of-disaster/story-fndir2ev-1226843109609



         It seems that the Russians are depolying troops without insignia. They did the same during operations in Georgia and Chechnia (sp) as well. The use of forces without proper National identification is very disturbing. Usually leads to a bad situation.  One has to questions why the Russians are deploying this way. It has been pretty much standard for troops to wear National markings on uniforms over the last 30 years, give or take a few.
    The ones that do not, are usually para-military and or military contractors, or better known as mercenaries. These folks usually operate out of the normal rules of engagement. If this situation gets hot, these guys do not follow the rules. I am not a 100% sure, but I do believe the Geneva Convention requires that National troops wear identifying insignia.
       Of course the US has skirted along these issues as well, in our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Whatever, never mind.
       The Euros and Americans will look the other way, as innocent people suffer.
Same old story.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:50 pm

"The Euros and Americans will look the other way, as innocent people suffer.
Same old story."

Except for Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia, and Kuwait. And please don't get me started on Iraq and Afghanistan, "Fighting for OUR freedom" give me a break. The day a bunch of farmers with AK's and RPG's can actually threaten my freedom will be a sad, sad day for America.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:33 am

Big update : http://rt.com/news/crimea-referendum-status-ukraine-154/
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:43 pm

Interesting.
I bet there is a majority of ethnic Russians in this region, especially with it's access to the Black Sea, which the Russians want to maintain so badly.
Sevastopol has been a main target for a couple of modern wars. The Crimean War in the 1850's and then the German siege of WW2. It always strikes me funny that no matter of the era or technology of warfare how certain places are always so strategic. Some things just never change.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:14 am

My notes are the following. I can provide references as needed or useful...

* Russia Today is not at all a trustworthy news source. It is controlled by Putin, who is a fascist. Two RT news readers have broken ranks and denounced Russian aggression in Crimea.
* Most of the Russian stuff about "neo-Nazis and anti-Semites" rampaging in Ukraine is false propaganda. There are some bad players of this type in Urkraine, no doubt, and it is certainly a group to be wary of (similar to the neo-fascists in Hungary) but there are many, many more of this type in Russia, including some with Kremlin sanction -- not to mention the officially-backed revival of the Cossack paramilitary. In fact, there was a Jewish Brigade on the Maidan opposing the Russian-backed government. Most Ukrainian Jews support the new government, which is by no means "controlled" or "run" by neo-Nazis.
* UN and OSCE observers going to Crimea to observe "anti-Russian" activities, as claimed by Russia, have been attacked and threatened by armed men -- Russians, not Ukrainians.
* Ukraine, Crimea and Russia have long cultural ties, including ones that are not very nice like expulsion of Crimean Tatars and the Ukrainian famine. By international law, neither Ukraine nor Crimea are part of Russia. Russia is acting in an entirely unethical way claiming it has "special right" to intervene. (This does not excuse any bad behavior on the part of the USA or any other country, but nor does it make it "OK" for Russia to do so.)
* Claims of overwhelming support for Putin's sick thuggish behavior are grossly exagerated. Neither a majority of the Russian people nor a majority of Putin's own advisors want this kind of throwback to bad old days of European racism, national chauvinism and war. However, most of the new/young Russian middle class is staying quiet to avoid persecution. It is a small gang of former KGB generals and colonels around Putin carrying out this aggression.

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PostSubject: Re   Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:42 am

Thanks for sharing Phoenix. I agree, Russia's news is propaganda, not news.

I am all for self determination, so if Crimea wants to be part of Russia, then sure. But idk why they'd prefer to be governed by Moscow then themselves. We'll see how the referendum goes.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:20 am

If you could please point me in the direction of a trustworthy news source I would be delighted, however I can't read Swiss and every one else seems to have picked a side already. The Guardian, The Washington Post, and many others all seem to be completely pro-NATO propaganda. The reason I get my news from RT is I know what the West is gonna say.

It's things like this http://rt.com/news/kerry-russia-us-pretext-494/ that go unquestioned in any western news outlet that makes me look else where for news. I'm mean how hard is it for people to point out the hypocrisy in what John Kerry was saying.

Russia has been demonized the same way the Arabs have.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:46 am

InsaneKaleb wrote:
If you could please point me in the direction of a trustworthy news source I would be delighted, however I can't read Swiss and every one else seems to have picked a side already. The Guardian, The Washington Post, and many others all seem to be completely pro-NATO propaganda. The reason I get my news from RT is I know what the West is gonna say.

It's things like this http://rt.com/news/kerry-russia-us-pretext-494/ that go unquestioned in any western news outlet that makes me look else where for news. I'm mean how hard is it for people to point out the hypocrisy in what John Kerry was saying.

Russia has been demonized the same way the Arabs have.


I've gotta run. Will try to find some links to put here. imho, Kerry's a slimy opportunist and always has been. On the othe hand, Putin's a fascist bully who deserves to be smacked around. Crimea is complicated. On the face of it, yes, they, like the Basques, Catalans, Chechens and Kurds, should have the right to self-determination. Exactly what that means when the majority population displaced the original population is a more difficult question. In general have no love for either side (western 'democratic' capital vs. Russsian 'oligarchic' capital), but I am particularly upset with Putin at the moment since his reactionary social policies have meant people I know are fleeing from Russia, so it is personal with me this time.  rabbit 

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:30 pm

Enter the Socialists: http://rt.com/politics/russian-left-international-socialist-054/
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:43 pm

On the subject of the Tatar's within Crimea: http://rt.com/news/crimea-tatar-rights-guarantee-122/
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:12 am

For the Kremlin, Ukrainian Anti-Semitism Is a Tool for Scaring Russians in Crimea, Tablet magazine, Hannah Thoburn

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:13 am

Is Vladimir Putin Insane? Hardly, LA Times, Masha Gessen

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:20 am

Al Jazeera has had some interesting reporting on the Russian/Ukrainian/Crimean situation, particularly as it relates to Crimean Tatars and intersections with Syrian situation, but in general as well. They seem to have a relatively balanced approach. See, for example: The Ukraine crisis: A MIddle East perspective

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:22 am

The Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin, by Masha Gessen.

In my opinion, anything by Masha is worth reading. She is back in the US now and publishing a lot of articles in English in various journals in the US, UK and Canada.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:31 am

UKRAINE: Ukrainian anarchist dispels myths surrounding Euromaidan protests, warns of fascist influence, Tahrir-ICN blog (an anarchist blog), from Revolution News, an interview with a Ukrainian anarchist. Lots of interesting insights, including pointing out the similarities between far-right Svoboda in Ukraine and Jobbik in Hungary and the very conservative nature of "Communist" parties in eastern Europe & Russia.

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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:00 pm

"I warn you, if anyone in this town, this area, engages in 'lawlessness' and looting, Right Sector squads will shoot the bastards on the spot. Then there will be order and discipline," one of the radical nationalist opposition group leaders, Aleksandr Muzychko, said on Friday.

Aleksandr Muzychko is a notorious nationalist leader. Back in 2007 he pledged to fight against "communists, Jews and Russians for as long as blood flows in his veins," openly saying that leading the fight against all of the above mentioned groups is his "credo."

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-radical-attacks-prosecutor-080/ <same guy. Sure seems like he isn't being pursued to hard be the new guys.

Are you sure its all just propaganda? http://rt.com/news/ukraine-monuments-nazi-symbols-645/ The pictures in this article tell the story all by there self without any need for interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Ukrainian Revolution   Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:52 pm

This is the 500th post on SFPs Forum
had to tell you guys
 Razz 
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PostSubject: Re   Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:11 pm

Haha nice recks. Good catch!
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